No Bluetooth on Pc
  • AsalleAsalle
    0.00Applicant
    hi, my laptop is rather old and it has no bluetooth, so I cannot even open the OpenGArden on it! What should I do? And I dont have a portable adapter...
  • paigemarieepaigemariee
    2870.00Administrator, Moderator
    Bluetooth is necessary for Open Garden to work properly. Unfortunately, you will need to buy an adapter or use a device that has Bluetooth installed.
    Paige Peterson
    Open Garden Community Manager
  • KismatKismat
    210.00Member
    In my case my Laptop is pretty much state of the art. Its a gaming rig, but it does not have Bluetooth, and honestly.. nowadays there are enough people that specifically avoid using BT enabled devices for many reasons, chief among them are security concerns. Its been over 4 years, I have never needed to use BlueTooth (BT) with any of my devices.

    What are the chances the devs, reconsider this rule, and allow Open Garden to run even without BT present.

    To my understand Open Garden is able to share internet from a cellphone via wifi direct, so the client (laptop without BT) doesnt need BT anyways.

    If my understanding is correct, then why do the devs still insist on it?

    I've started another thread on the same topic here: http://forum.opengarden.com/discussion/321/dev-feedback-needed-windows-client-wont-start-unless-bluetooth-hardware-is-present.

    Besides, having to plug in a BT dongle = more effort than having to press the hotspot widget
  • KyleKyle
    20.00Member
    I don't work for this company, but I have many years working experience in this arena, so ...

    BT & WiFi are both radios, they both operate on the 2.4GHz frequency, really the only difference is range. There's really little to no security risk involved with BT that's not also present on WiFi. If anything, BT is more secure due to the range limitations.

    BlueTooth dongles are tiny, dirt cheap and can be left in permanently: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320057&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

    Also, unless your laptop has the ability for simultaneous dual channel TX/Rx (aka dual WiFi radios) you would still need to get a second WiFi adapter, that you would have to plug-in/unplug, to do what you're talking about. This setup would create some lovely interference issues, but primarily this defeats the point of your request as you'd have to buy an additional adapter anyway.
  • shalunovshalunov
    1470.00Administrator, Moderator
    @Kyle is spot-on. Thank you for helping the community, Kyle.

    Additionally, every device I know that supports Wi-Fi Direct also supports Bluetooth.

    -- Stas
    Stanislav Shalunov
    CTO, Open Garden
  • KismatKismat
    210.00Member
    @Stas:

    1.) Killer NIC 1103 for example, which is a modern popular gaming NIC (mostly for its bandwidth management features) supports wifi-direct, but does not have Bluetooth.

    2.) But more importantly, while I do appreciate the "good intent" behind the creation on Open Garden, you will have to acknowledge that since your going public, you also have to "acknowledge" devices that you have not seen. Just because you are not aware of it, does not mean it does not exist. Your point of view is not final, nor the absolute truth.

    3.) You have crossed the threshold of developing something for yourself, and whether you realize or not, you are now developing for the community that actually uses your product.

    4.) I've noticed a few posts that come off as arrogant and condescending, and thats never a good thing for innovative communities. It is also the main reason why most Devs have someone else that is not a programmer interact with the people.

    5.) And some members of your community will want to have more information, or better support. Like a more detailed explanation of how devices pair, what security measures have been taken, etc.

    @Kyle:

    1.) Wi-Fi direct can be encrypted with WPA2, that will certainly take a long time to crack.

    2.) Normally the user is not able to control the length of the bluetooth pairing "PIN", which typically ends up to be a 4 digit pin by default. Common pins that manufacturers use are 1234,0000.

    3.) A 850-MHz Pentium III could recover a 6-digit PIN in 12.5 seconds. Thats something to think about. (- eetimes.com)

    4.) So Im sorry to say, that a blanket statement like yours is not entirely accurate. And can mislead people that dont understand basic IT Security.

    5.) Nowadays in an open area bluetooth can reach up to 100meters, and can be boosted up to 1km.

    6.) Aside from that, you can also sniff bluetooth traffic just as easily as you would sniff wifi traffic. In fact there are android bt sniffing apps available as well, which would dump packets to a sql db, which can be analyzed later. Not to mention commercial grade BT sniffer dongles.
  • KyleKyle
    20.00Member
    #1: & #3: Using current gen hardware, it's not that hard to crack any radio's encryption which is why everyone who needs that kind of security uses a VPN ... and the fact that OG creates a VPN tunnel for your data means it's secure enough. No offense, but I'm sure you're not that important/interesting enough to put in the necessary effort to defeat a VPN connection, and if you are then you don't need to be using radio connections.

    #2 & #5 & #6: Again the BT is VPN encrypted, so the pin, the range, etc is all irrelevant. If VPN doesn't satisfy your security needs then ... again ... you need to not be using radio networks and plug the Ethernet cable into your laptop and then you can just setup a basic AdHoc WiFi network for your phone.

    Based on what I've read of your description of what you want to do, you don't possess the necessary hardware anyway. You only have one radio, WiFi. You would need another radio (1 to connect to the internet & 1 to connect to your device) so you'd have to buy a second WiFi adapter and that's not a good idea when you consider the interference you'd end up creating for yourself. But if you had that config then there's not really a need for an app as it makes more sense just to use one of the WiFi radios to setup an AdHoc network between your phone/laptop.
  • KyleKyle
    20.00Member
    shalunov said:

    @Kyle is spot-on. Thank you for helping the community, Kyle.

    Additionally, every device I know that supports Wi-Fi Direct also supports Bluetooth.

    -- Stas



    Fo Shizzle ... 10ish years doing this stuff comes in handy from time to time. The military contracts were "fun"; I can't tell you the number of times I had to explain how wireless networks work to guys in the Army, Navy, Marines, god bless 'em :)

    (There's no angrier dude than a Marine who can't watch his porn)
  • KismatKismat
    210.00Member
    Kyle said:

    #1: & #3: Using current gen hardware, it's not that hard to crack any radio's encryption which is why everyone who needs that kind of security uses a VPN ... and the fact that OG creates a VPN tunnel for your data means it's secure enough. No offense, but I'm sure you're not that important/interesting enough to put in the necessary effort to defeat a VPN connection, and if you are then you don't need to be using radio connections.



    1.) You may have a point there, but where is the document that states OG creates a VPN tunnel? The chances of you being correct on this one is quite high, but from the main page I cannot easily find a page that describes this in writing.

    2.) The mentality that people are not interesting/important enough is never a good argument. The answer to that is always relative to the attackers point of view, not necessarily your personal opinion.

    Kyle said:

    #2 & #5 & #6: Again the BT is VPN encrypted, so the pin, the range, etc is all irrelevant. If VPN doesn't satisfy your security needs then ... again ... you need to not be using radio networks and plug the Ethernet cable into your laptop and then you can just setup a basic AdHoc WiFi network for your phone.



    1.) Im pretty sure you mean OG opens a tunnel, and not Bluetooth. And yes VPN does satisfy my personal security needs, but as I pointed out earlier, I was not able to find a section on the site that explains this, nor is it present on the FAQ

    Kyle said:


    Based on what I've read of your description of what you want to do, you don't possess the necessary hardware anyway. You only have one radio, WiFi. You would need another radio (1 to connect to the internet & 1 to connect to your device) so you'd have to buy a second WiFi adapter and that's not a good idea when you consider the interference you'd end up creating for yourself. But if you had that config then there's not really a need for an app as it makes more sense just to use one of the WiFi radios to setup an AdHoc network between your phone/laptop.




    Scenario 1. (A counter example)
    1.a) Lets say my laptop has a built in 3G radio which I can use to connect to the net. Can I not then share this internet over wifi with another device?
    1.b) In this case I would not need two wifi antennas.

    Scenario 2. (My actual use scenario)
    My phone has wifi, and a 3g radio. So cant my phone establish the net connection over 3g? And then share it over wifi with my laptop?
    But your not at fault, I dont recall having specified that I wish my phone to share its internet connection with my laptop over wifi. I assumed it was a given. (Since Open Garden market themselves as a "replacement" to wifi tethering. But Im finding out that open garden at this stage cannot replace "wi-fi tethering" until they make the bluetooth requirement optional.

    Currently I have my rooted Galaxy Nexus run a WPA2 Hotspot, its connected to the internet via its 3g radio. Therefore any other device my "tap-into" the internet by connecting to this hotspot which is created by the Galaxy Nexus.

    This is precisely the part that confuses me. If my GNEX does not need bluetooth to share its internet with my laptop, why then does Open Garden Absolutely require bluetooth to share Internet with other devices.

    Im not really sure but in another thread it may have been hinted once OG introduces channel bonding, the bluetooth dependency might not be there any more. Or I could have misunderstood it. Things were not really written very clearly. (referenced thread: http://forum.opengarden.com/discussion/comment/1580#Comment_1580)
  • Bluetooth is simply required. Unfortunately, Open Garden is not for you.

  • paigemarieepaigemariee
    2870.00Administrator, Moderator
    @Kismat
    Open Garden does use VPN, but you are correct in that it is not documented enough. Thanks for pointing that out.
    Paige Peterson
    Open Garden Community Manager
  • KismatKismat
    210.00Member

    Bluetooth is simply required. Unfortunately, Open Garden is not for you.



    Very educational Joe... yes I think that was obvious that Im not able to use OG. However whether OG is for me or not, is more or less my decision and not yours.

    See, Im a stakeholder, as In OG's success or failure interests me very much, and I think its a brilliant project. And I hope one day the devs will make changes that would support my usage scenario.
    Also until OG provide better documentation of what their product is actually doing, and why its doing it, many users will end up being confused, this will lead to more frustrated posts on the forum.



    @Kismat
    Open Garden does use VPN, but you are correct in that it is not documented enough. Thanks for pointing that out.



    No Problem, even If I cant use OG, its still interesting to understand how it works.
  • paigemarieepaigemariee
    2870.00Administrator, Moderator
    Kismat said:

    Also until OG provide better documentation of what their product is actually doing, and why its doing it, many users will end up being confused, this will lead to more frustrated posts on the forum.

    No Problem, even If I cant use OG, its still interesting to understand how it works.



    We are working towards more comprehensive documentation for sure but it would help to know what parts of the FAQ users think need to be expanded upon. I'd like to hear your opinion specifically as someone who is genuinely interested.
    Thanks in advance if you can do this!
    Paige Peterson
    Open Garden Community Manager
  • KismatKismat
    210.00Member
    Ill take a look at the FAQ for my list soon as I can. But here are some items:

    1.) How exactly does Open Garden Work
    2.) If I install OG, does that mean any user with OG near me can use my bandwidth (I pay for bandwidth overages)
    3.) What is bluetooth used for and why?
    4.) Why must I have Bluetooth for OG to work (See #3)
    5.) Is it secure? (How is it secured, what kind of encryption etc)
    6.) How do I report bugs
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